Question Time!
I like to talk. We've covered this before, right? Okay, just checking. Because you need to know that when I say, "I've had a-LOT of conversations with my Christian friends and mentors about the issue of 'setting boundaries'", I mean ALOT of conversations. But seriously, I'm finding through these conversations that boundary-setting is a crucial step when establishing any relationship (romantic OR plutonic). All too often, a new relationship is captivating, exciting: and before we know it, before we've had a chance to sit down and really decide "what's acceptable and what's not", we've let things get out of control.
Unless we have a clear-cut set of boundaries established in our own minds before we engage in a new relationship of any kind with a member of the opposite sex, we're opening ourselves up to a world of trouble. Why don't some people set boundaries in Christian relationships / friendships? Well, some would say we shouldn't have to. Godly people should know better. Well you know, I've witnessed situations in which you would think the good Godly man would know better, but he didn't. And he wasn't respectful of his girlfriends or Christian female friends. What he thought was funny, just wasn't. It was just downright inappropriate and disrespectful. Plain and simple. But because boundaries weren't set by the women in his life, he just kept pushing the envelope until things spun out of control.
So here's the question of the day people: What do you, as a healthy, mindful, Christian single (or even not-so-single... don't want to leave you out- you can play too!) think is acceptable in a friendship between a Christian man and Christian woman? (I'm not trying to exclude the secular world, but you know that it's an "anything goes" type of society these days, so my demographic today is limited.)
* Should there be absolutely no physical contact whatsoever?
* Is a hug okay?
-Should that hug be limited to the friendly "side hug"?
* Ladies: How would you react if one of your guy friends slapped you on the rear "in jest"?
What, in your opinion, is or isn't physically acceptable in a dating relationship? Do those standards change in your mind once you become engaged?
Let's talk!
***Please take a moment and read the following article: http://www.singleness.org/agape.shtml
After some weighty discussion, my very insightful friend Katie recommended it, and it just blew me away. It is a wonderful, informative, soul-stirring read, and very pertinent to the topic at hand. Enjoy!***
posted by Stephanie @ 8:39 AM
56 Comments:
Whoa, Stephanie, girl you hit the heart of the matter right upside the head don't you? I like that.
I'll be back with my answer and I want to know your thoughts also.
Wow. I don't really know what to say. What I think boundaries should be are different then what I made them. Maybe there is a happy medium in there somewhere.
Our pastor teaches Song of Solomon conferences. He lists what the progression normally is. I wish I could remember, but I'd have to check my notes.
I something like:
hand to hand
hand to back
hand to face
hand to body
body to body
It's got steps in between there that I'm totally forgetting, but it does make you aware of what the "next step" would be if you keep progressing.
He always teases that he pities the fool that touches his wife's face. Because he's make short work of him if he ever saw it happen.
oahtd - Oh, a toad.
Katie: I sure do. Especially when it hits close to home like this particular issue does. I look forward to hearing what you have to say. And if you want to recruit anyone else: Jess, Cav, etc.. I'd like to know what they have to say too!
Amstaff- I know, kind of a touchy subject, but important no less. I like that progression. Really makes sense. I'm surprised by the hand on the back thing. The guy I referred to briefly did that a lot to women... never saw anything wrong with it. Until now.
Boundaries, the line never to be crossed, the next step (base even) to be conquested to reach the final goal. Sometimes, I wonder if the problem with boundaries is that they are always end focused. Yes we want to, and it is good to, set up some expectations of a relationship, but we look at these things in light of the final goal we want to reach. Instead of working forward from nothing and enjoying the experience of discovery and the building of a relationship, we work backward from the final destination of whatever it may be (friendship, relationship, marriage, physical, etc.) and just set up road blocks along the way. Often times it’s not what can we do but what can’t we do, and the “can’t” is always something that we want to be a “can” in the future.
Now I’m not against communication, and the expression of intent and what people are thinking but I think also there is a large responsibility on each person involved to have the other’s best interest at heart and if they truly care for this person (even if just as a brother or sister in Christ) they will withhold assumptions of being owed a game plan. Sometimes our desire to know what the future is makes us miss out on what the present holds. This isn’t making much sense is it?
I think the biggest issue in all of this is where our focus is. Be it a friendship, a relationship, or something in between, the biggest issue is that we are often thinking of “ourselves”. What am I going to get out of this? What do I want to happen? What is going to make me feel loved, cared for, appreciated, etc. It becomes a selfish act where we look to someone else to fulfill all those needs and we begin to judge them by what they are doing for us.
There is a GREAT article that someone gave me that spoke so much truth to this issue. The name of it alone speaks volumes – “AGAPE – No strings attached”. Here is the URL and I really encourage others to check it out: http://www.singleness.org/agape.shtml
I really can’t say it any better than the author did. So please take a moment and read it and then comment back with what you think.
As to your specific questions, Stephanie here are my thoughts:
Physical contact is good. I think people are made to show affection, friendship, care for each other by touch. We are human beings and we have the sense of touch. Physical contact can be tender and caring without being romantic. Now the extent of that contact should always be prefaced by verbal commitment. I.E. Don’t stick your tongue down another person’s throat without telling them how you feel about them and you better feel more than “I think you’re hot and want to make out with you.” That is a selfish motive seeking only to satisfy your needs instead of the direct response to an emotional and more than that sacrificial love that overflows to physical contact.
Hugs are great. I love hugs. Hugs show that you care for someone. Now hugs can be different in their intent, a side hug is easy and affectionate but also very safe, but can you “full frontal hug” a guy friend– I say yes. The big thing here is again communication; don’t have a physical act precede a verbal one.
Ok now to the slap on the butt. For me that is inappropriate, because that is an area of your body that is not generally contacted by the outside world. I have issues with the slap because 1. I think it is inappropriate for a man to have his hand on your butt without a relational commitment and 2. I think it is rude. If it is meant in a sexual way than it is wrong and if it is meant is a joking way than it is not respectful to you.
Hmmm, rereading this I think I got off-topic but still in the ballpark. You seem to be focusing more on the physical issue and that is SUPER important but I guess I jumped down to the heart of why the "physical" is such an issue. Gosh, sorry if I jumped the tracks here. Just tell me to shut up if I'm way off base.
Sorry Stephanie, this is the longest comment I’ve ever left on someone’s site but you make me think (which I love about you).
Wow Katie- I'm overwhelmed here. I almost started crying when I read that article. I think Lia Fuller O'Neil wrote that JUST FOR ME. Holy Cow. Talk about making someone think, Katie, geez! I need to process. I'll be back with my response in a bit.
Oh Stephanie, that article has seen many of my tears. The funny thing is that they aren't tears of sadness but of relief, of finally finding an answer. It is good stuff and something that has stuck with me years after reading it.
I'm going to go read the article now. Good comments K-T. Y'all definitely have good heads on your shoulders.
Steph - I don't mean to say that putting your hand on someone's back is wrong. Neither is holding someone's hand. But you will always be tempted to keep going, and it's important to remember where that will take you.
I am definitely a hugger as well. Part of it is my Spanish background. Part of it is just me as a person. It's as if I have a cup inside of me, and if I don't have a hug within a certain period of time, it begins to dry up. This is when I simply must find hubby and tell him that "my cup is bone-dry and I desperately need a hug". He will oblige, but he's not a hugger. Go-figure. This was completely off topic. I'm sorry!!!
Stephanie:
I am answering this without reading the other responses, and then I'll go back and read what others had to say.
I am no longer single, but I have many single girl and guy-friends, and I definitely still have an opinion. Of course, I have an opinion about nearly everything, so that statement shouldn't be all that surprising. :)
What do I think is acceptable in a friendship between a Christian man and a Christian woman? Acceptable in a friendship only? I think that conversations area acceptable. I think that going places together is acceptable. I AM ABSOLUTELY ADAMANT THAT A GUY NEEDS TO DTR.
DTR=Define the relationship.
I think that any guy, regardless of his relationship with someone of the opposite sex, needs to do this. It doesn't matter if he's married, if he's single, if she's married, or if she's single. If they guy is spending time with a girl or getting to know a girl, it is his responsibility to let her know where he stands. This may mean that he says, "I just want to get to know you as a friend." or "I am interested in getting to know you as more than a friend." or "I love your character, let's spend more time together one-on-one and in a group environment, and see where God leads us."
THIS IS SO NECESSARY FOR A GIRL'S HEART.
I don't think it's appropriate for a guy to kiss the girl, to embrace her for long periods of time, slap her butt, make comments about her sexual attractiveness (though comments about her looking pretty, etc., are perfectly acceptable. and encouraged!). I think that if they guy and girl are spending a significant amount of time together, they should set a curfew together, like, "we won't stay out together ALONE past 1am" or something like that. things happen late at night, and if they are convicted that they just don't want to go there before marriage, then this is a good way to prevent yourself from slipping into that pattern.
Should there be absolutely no physical contact whatsoever? I think this is a little absurd. No physical contact? No holding hands? I don't think the guy and girl should act like the other each has the plague.
I think that this should be determined by the girl and guy based on his AND her previous struggles. If a guy has struggled with pornography, or with sexual tendencies, then it's probably not best that they take naps together, or rub all up against each other or whatever.
but for guys and girls who are just friends, hugging is fine. why not? whatever they are comfortable with: side hugs, front hugs. some people it really just doesn't affect. some people it does. i think it depends on the individual.
for guys and girls who are dating, hugs are fine, holding hands is fine, i even think that kissing is fine.
when you start getting into the taking clothes off and making out, problems begin. and let's face it: most couples will struggle physically.
God designed us to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. but this part of the physical relationship belongs in one place, and that is MARRIAGE.
for me, it boils down to this: do you want to please your boyfriend, or do you want to please God? because that behavior is not pleasing to God. if you do not have self-control or discipline in your single life, it most likely will not exist in your married life, and that presents its own problems.
how would i react if one of my guy friends slapped my butt in jest? i would be shocked. and upset. my verbal response to him would depend entirely on whether he was a believer. if not, i would very firmly tell him that he should NEVER do that again. if he was a believer, we should sit down and have a conversation about boundaries, what i believe isn't appropriate or edifying behavior on his part, and ask if i had done anything to lead up to that point that i needed to ask forgiveness for. after that, i would hope he would apologize, that i would forgive him, and that it wouldn't happen again.
Do my standards change during the engagement period? Not really. They're still the same couple, with the same struggles, both knowing their limits. Save it for the marriage. You don't want your wedding night, and honeymoon, and the rest of your life to be "business as usual." And you'll be thankful that you waited.
Have I mentioned that my friend Jessica is absofreakinlutely AMAZING and WISE.
Ok.. I am walking into a group full of girls... Lord be with me...
This is a great topic and one that I am SO loving getting a woman's insight about. I have been single for a long long time and I have friends who are women. One of my best friends is a woman and it is awesome to have her in my life. We spend a ton of time together and I think that I have done a good job in doing what Jes says.. defining what our relationship is. I NEVER use to do this and I lost many many friendships with girls because I was on a "hey you are a great friend" wavelength and they were on a "there is a relationship brewin'" wavelength.
I can't speak for all guys, but I knwo that I personally desire to have close friendships with women. I didnt get to know women as friends until later in life and I am finding that it is a insightful journey (to say the least).
YOu guys REALLY REALLY think a lot... As a man I claim that I think quite a bit but I am finding that I don't even scratch the surface of the inner workings of women.
I like hugs. I worry though about sending wrong messages... so that is where the defining things before hand works out so well.
I have no idea if I even said ANYTHING here...
steve, why do you think you desire to have close friendships with women? this is interesting to me.
if you do marry in the future, please note that the woman you marry is going to have to be VERY secure.
i consider myself a fairly secure person, but i know that if Roger had REALLY close girl-friends, whom he would consider a "best" friend, I would probably feel threatened on some level.
unless i was friends with her too, and we all hung out as a group. that might be different.
do you think that even when/if you marry, you will continue to pursue close friendships with women? because i agree with you: women interpret friendships with men differently than men interpret them.
I think I just fell in love and awe with another Texan! Seriously, it must be something in the water down there! lol!
Jess: I couldn't have said it better myself. I appreciate your feedback. It was right on the mark.
So my take after having read the article Katie recommended, Katie, Jess, and Amstaff's comments my response is this:
The reason this hits so close to home is for a reason that was so perfectly and eloquently stated in the "Agape" article: "When someone starts discovering our spirit and heart in the pursuit of love, spends time with us, gives of himself or herself; becomes involved in our life, we sometimes can't help falling in love in the process of growing to love, even when we are pursuing love with a pure heart." I unwittingly fell into this catergory, and found myself experiencing a myriad of emotion over what I thought was a decent, Godly friendship with someone which eventually spun out of control. Bottom line: He lacked respect. Emotional manipulation played a huge factor. He lead me on. I lacked boundaries.
And Katie, you digging deeper into this (for which I'm thankful to you that you did) only brings to light the reality - the gravity - of all of this. The core issue in relationship to all of these things truly is the intention of both parties. If we're not wholeheartedly seeking God, and seeking God's best for the recipient of our love/affections (whether romantic or plutonic), then the motive of all of our interactions with that person truly becomes selfish: And selfishness can breed disrespect. Disrespect can destroy the relationship that you "worked so hard" to build with someone.
So to answer my own questions: I think hugs are great. I'm a hugger too. Without hugs, my cup also begins to dry out. Jess: I'm with you. Comments about a woman's sexual attractiveness: not okay. Comments about her beauty... here's where I find it to be sticky: If you're not intending to pursue a relationship with her, I say don't do it. You might send mixed signals and confuse her. But a simple, "Hey, you look really nice today." That's fine. (Semantics, I know. But you almost have to argue them on this issue.) The slapping on the butt thing: Touch me like that again, and you will be looking down the business end of a hissy fit! That's how I feel about that NOW. Six months ago, I might have told you something different. (I was also in a much different place now in my walk than I was six months ago.)
In a dating relationship, I too think it a bit ridiculous to 100% refrain from touching one another. God bless those who can wait until thier wedding day to kiss each other. I will NOT be one of those people. I definitely think there are some clear, distinct lines that can not and will not be crossed when/if I date. (My dream is to live out the theory in "I Kissed Dating Goodbye". Note usage of the word, "dream".) But that's also where communication comes in. Jess- you were right on by saying that "the guy needs to define the relationship". With that includes a serious sit-down about lines to be drawn. While I'm happy to explore my relationships as they go, I'm not happy with inappropriate exploration that has nothing to do with who I am as a person. That's why I think boundaries NEED to happen.
*WHEW!* This was a long one! lol
also, when Roger and i were first getting to know each other, something that i TOTALLY respected him for was his leadership in this area.
he called me up one night after we had hung out and told me, "i don't know if you are thinking along these lines, but i wanted to talk about our relationship with you." when he said that, my heart skipped a beat because i already knew that i liked him and respected him and admired him, just from getting to know him, but i didn't know how he felt.
then he said, "i just want you to know that i am just your friend. i know that sometimes it can be confusing, and i wanted to set the record straight and tell you that i am only interested in friendship with you."
it was a little disheartening at first, but then i realized how much of a favor he was doing me. we continued to spend time together, and it didn't feel awkward. it freed us to be natural and vulnerable with each other, as friends, and to get to know each other without the "does he like me?" "did i just do something stupid?" "does he like me?" worries going through my head.
and later, he redefined our relationship and asked me to be his girlfriend.
he has always been so clear about his expectations, and that is something that i absolutely LOVE about him.
ps: i did not leave that last comment to go on and on about Roger, although he is a fantastically wise and wonderful guy.
my intention was to speak to the men on your site of something they ought to consider with the women in their lives, and to speak to the women on your site of something they should seek in a man.
if you can't follow his leadership in friendship, you need to consider what dating and marriage would be like. he needs to step up to the plate.
And that my friends is why I told Jes she had to come here and comment. I LOVE MY FRIEND JESSICA (and her sweet and loving huband Roger).
Stephanie great thoughts, I agree.
also, i've discovered that i like to talk and always make my opinions known. no wonder katie and i get along so well.
i realize that what I have said requires a lot from a man. and to the men, i must say: i think that you may not understand that Christian women are actually BREEDED to expect these leadership skills from men.
God gave them to you inherently. It is your role. Fulfill your destiny, young Jedi!
or something like that.
Steve-
I'd have to say that I'm with Jess on this one: while friendships with women are great- for you - it's going to be hard, hard, HARD on the woman that might someday choose to make your wife. Jess is right: She'll either have to be uber-confident and secure, otherwise she'll always be thinking, "Why am *I* not good enough for him? What is he finding in these other women that I am not apparently providing? What am I doing wrong?"
That's just my two cents. And yes, we do think. And talk. A lot. That's what we as women are wired to do.
In regards to your comments about getting to know women: "I am finding that it is a insightful journey (to say the least)"... How true that is, Steve. I just started reading a book called, "Captivating", and they say the same thing. That women are intricate, deep, and soulful: That our femininity is powerful and tender, fierce and alluring: that it truly speaks to us of the heart of God. We are by no means simplistic: which is what makes each and every one of us so wonderfully different. So take it in, Steve - appreciate it! It's not every day men get in the minds of women like you are today!
I agree with Katie amstaff and Jes big time.I am so encouraged to hear Godly women write like this. YEAH!
BIG TIME.
Especially about the part of men needing to define the relationship. Yes it requires a lot for a man - but us women of high standards shouldn't settle for less. I think of it as we are glorifying god by following his will.
I am going to go read the article KT recommended.
I do give hugs to guys - but in a very sisterly action - I always let my heart be known - ALWAYS, that way they know what I am about. But I also have very brotherly and sisterly relations where we have been known to rough house in a light hearted fun way - say like at Kamp or a fun goofy ministy - the scene is completely platonic with no intentions from either party. Some may see this as wrong - but it really depends on the person who you are having the relationship with. I would never want to be a stumbling block for someone. I think the key is communication.
I think if you live out the fruits of the spirt you a reflecion of God's character: love, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness and self-control.
I agree with Jes on alot of points.
It is important to know where the guy stands on how he feels about a girl. Yes, the "what if" stage is fun, but it can also be painful if the feelings were thought were there really were never there to begin with. Better to be hurt initially, then to have invested your time and your heart into it.
I agree that appropriate affection is fine, and in someways necessary. Physical attraction should not be what a relationship is built on, but it is important to be attracted to them, and I think it would be exceedingly difficult to never kiss before the wedding. I did attend one wedding where that was their first kiss and bless their hearts, I think it had been building up for so long, that they got a little carried away.
I do think things have to change when you get married and the boundaries have to be stringent and set in place as to how much time you spend with a member of the opposite sex. Our marriage counselor has a very strong and loving marriage. Both she, nor her husband have spent time alone with a member of the opposite sex. No lunches, no car rides, not even socializing in the same room by themselves. Pretty stringent guidelines, but then, their marriage has been protected also.
Good discussions all.
amstaff, our counselor (we went to counseling while we dated) told us that she and her husband do the same thing.
and now, roger and i do, too.
we don't spend time alone with members of the opposite sex. if we do, for whatever reason, we call the other person just to let them know.
it's a respect thing. and a trust thing. we're saying to each other, "I respect you enough to let you know that I'm riding in the car alone with ________."
obviously we don't call when we're in the car, but we do it ahead of time. if unforeseen circumstances dictate that we cannot call the person beforehand, we always let each other know afterward, "I just want you to know that _________." whatever it was.
that way, if it ever is brought up, you'll know about it. like, if a friend said, "Hey. I saw Roger dining with a woman yesterday. Who was she?" I won't be taken off guard. I'll be able to say, "Oh, she's just his coworker. They were discussing their business approach to a new client." or whatever.
see how that works?
Jes, I think it's the same counselor. Isn't it?
Good Plan, btw.
Kim Humphries? Have we already talked about this?
yep, one and the same. At Eddo's.
It's a small world after all.
She's the reason I have any sanity at all. Wonderful, wonderful lady.
so none of you girl would allow your man to be friends with other women?
To hang out as a group, yes, it's just fine. For them to ever hang out together by themselves, or email regularly, or call regularly, no. Their time investted in the relationship would have to significantly decrease. At least with marriage. But with serious dating, it would have to start declining, I think.
Ok I think I need to say something here. I am a single gal who is/was friends with two great guys during points of singleness, dating, engagement, and marriage on thier parts. We were great friends, they are like my brothers, but our friendship did change as they had different type relationships with girls. I was very blessed to have friendships with both of their wives before they were even engaged.
When both of the great friends became engaged I knew that our friendship was going to change. I knew that I would no longer be the girl they called first. I had to know that my love for them, their happiness, and my care and love for their future wives took precedence over our friendship.
So yes guys and gals can be friends. They should be, it is a GREAT thing and such a blessing.
I think the thing the other ladies are saying is that there should never be a question in the mind of the girl in a relationship with a boy that she is first in his life as far as all girls are concerned.
Does that help?
One mo thang - My parents are amazing when it comes to relationships and they have been Marriage counselors for DBC as well and they NEVER spend time with the opposite sex alone. They always taught us to "Live above reproach" because people are always watching and you want to set a good example for others and you don't want to cause others to stumble.
Excellent points KT and so right on. If you know up front where you stand in a relationship, then you know that you have to sometimes step down in your friendship position. It can be hard sometimes, but it is necessary.
Okay, I had to quickly skim through most of the comments, but I did read all of the post and part of the linked article.
Growing up my parents were youth pastors and they always cautioned us about hugging the opposite sex. Then I went to DBC and we were told never to give more than the side hug. I often feel uncomfortable hugging my own sisters any other way because it is so ingrained in me not to do it. Even when I hugged JCOL at her house I felt akward hugging her normally even though to me she is like a sister.
Anywho, I always try to be a gentleman, I try to be very cautious in the physical department, if I think it is going to cause me to stumble, I avoid it like the plague.
Tom Nelson also talks about "knowing yourself" and each person is different.
Defining the relationship is a good thing, but sometimes it is just weird. The responsibility falls on the person that has the feelings I think, If I like someone, i need to be up front and not expect them to just "know" that i have feelings. If I went around DTR'ing with every girl that I am friends with then I would be DTR'ing all the time.
And if I do like you, then trust me, I will flat out tell you that I am interested.
Yes, Katie, I agree. I think that the friendship is bound to (and should) change on account of marriage. You're absolutely right. But you'r also right when you said that those friendships are healthy and important. There has to be a balance.
Steve: Katie hit the nail on the head. It's not that you shouldn't be friends with them. But the Future Mrs. Steve Lady should never feel slighted, and in any way, less important than your female friends. Your relationship will suffer on account of it.
I can tell you right now, that while I have some very good guy friends, the future Mr. Stephanie Man will KNOW he's number one. No doubt about that.
Eddo: I think it's wonderful that you're as conciencious about your physical boundaries as you are. It shows a great amount of respect for yourself, the women in your life, and your future spouse. Can we clone you? ;)
I think we need to designate that friendships between single men and women are VERY DIFFERENT between friendships between married men and women.
JCol and Jes are in a different world than the rest of us single folks, and different rules and such apply there.
Noone is saying guys and gals can't or shouldn't be friends. If you are then you are CRAZY. My guy friends are precious to me and I wouldn't trade them for the world.
I think we strayed from the topic at hand, not a bad thing but just don't want anyone thinking that friendships, physical things, and the like are all balled up in one general idea or conviction
yeah, i agree with kt. jcol and i are in a bit different world.
if i were to say that married folks couldn't have friends of the opposite sex, i would be a hypocrit.
for example, i am friends with eddie. i love the guy - i think he is funny, wise, respectful, and lots of other good things. :)
but if eddie and i started talking on the phone a lot, or going out to eat, or hanging out in general, then i think we would be in a world of trouble.
a) it would "look" bad. why would i do that alone with eddie instead of with my husband and eddie?
b) when you hang out with someone of the opposite sex, you generally will gravitate toward vulnerability with each other. if this ended up with me and eddie being "vulnerable" with our emotions, etc. with each other, we would become emotionally attached.
c) if eddie and i were emotionally attached, it wouldn't be a very big leap to start spending MORE time together, to start opening about MORE areas of our lives.
d) and when we did that, we would be emotionally fulfilling in each other what my spouse wasn't fulfill in me, and his in him (if he were married).
e) when that happens, an affair could quickly follow suit.
THAT, MY FRIENDS, is why married couples are living in a slightly different world than single folks. because we have to protect our marriage.
i would never want to do anything that would cause my friends to question my integrity or my relationship with roger. more importantly, i would never want to do anything that would cause roger to question himself, our relationship, or where he stands in my life.
Jes, you should start doing seminars.
I agree. I don't want to make it sound like I don't have guy friends and that Brian doesn't have girl friends. You just have to be more careful when you're married.
Oh and I feel bad about the hug, Eddo. :( I don't want anybody to feel awkward from a hug. I'll remember, side hugs from now on.
Ok. Jes that helped.
I am not saying either that the elusive and nowhere to found future Mrs Steve wont get all my attention. I think I might just have a little jadedness in me because of past relationships where NO trust at all was present even though nothing was ever done to merit no trust.
Whole nother topic...
Bringing it back to the beginning.
It seems that communication and sacrificial love are where this conversation keeps ending up.
If you communicate properly and honestly with all parties (friends, dating, marriage, etc.) then that is the start.
Then if you love beyond your own selfish desires, love in a sacrificial way, a way that gives trust to God for the direction and security of the other person and the relationship then you end up with a relationship (again friendship, dating, marriage, etc.) that blesses both parties and is good.
cav, interesting that you say that. i would LOVE to start doing seminars. really. my heart is more toward high school and college girls and the issue of sexuality, abuse, rape, etc.
however, this is also a good topic for me. i'm definitely passionate about it. well, about both.
also, sorry eddie for singling you out. you were just the first single guy friend that popped into my mind that i spend time with. :)
Katie, I like what you said at the end of your last post. That really sums everything up PERFECTLY.
And Jes: Wonderful chronology on the dangers of intimate male/female relationships and it's effect on marriage. You really do have talent and wisdom that should be passed on to other young women. You should honestly consider seriously looking into a ministry of speaking about women's/young women's issues: I think the your message is a crucial one and needs to be shared. There are a lot of young ladies out there who are hurting- who are being emotionally abused, physically violated and abused, and have NO idea how wrong it really is.
can i scream yet?
Only if we can scream with you
stephanie, i agree with what you are saying. many don't know how wrong it is. many know it is wrong, but have friends who tell them that it isn't a big deal.
i have a platform, but no venue. i'm hoping to work with young women next summer looking at these issues, but only in a bible study role, not in a seminar role.
my dream = speaking to christian women at college conferences, like through women of faith or campus crusade or some other ministry program that holds such events.
um, steve? why are you wanting to scream?
Yeah Steve! Speak it, brother, what's up? (Jes, you beat me to the question! lol)
JCol- don’t feel bad about the hug, I always appreciate a hug, I just always mentally think “side hug, side hug, side hug!” when I am giving one, so as long as normal hugging doesn’t offend you then it doesn’t offend me!
Jes, single me out anytime, it makes me feel special when it is about something nice, now when it is about something negative, well... that's a different story.
ok its 1 am and i still am confused....
I was about to ask my pastor last night about "the list". It's the first time I've ever asked him a question, and so I was all nervous and scribbling as fast as I could, but I got it all down. I was WAY off, since it had been awhile since I've heard it. Here's the list.
It's called The Law of Diminishing Returns.
1. Hand - Hand
2. Hand - Waist
3. Hand - Shoulder
4. Hand - Face
5. Hand - Head
6. Body - Body (hugging)
7. Mouth - Face
8. Mouth - Mouth (he says this should not be occuring until you're serious about your relationship, such as engagement. He said a kiss is meant to frustrate and makes you want more, so not a good idea to do in a casual relationship.)
9. Hand - Body
10. Mouth - Body
11. Body - Body
I have been married 12.5 years, but before marriage, it was a "side hug" only. And if any man slapped me on my bottom for ANY REASON, I'd probably slap his face. My hubby is the only person I want touching me.
Incidentally, I have two really awesome guy friends. One of them was hubby's best friend in High School and I feel like I always need to be thinking about boundaries with him.
This is somewhat crude, but my Christian friend and mentor, Lynette always says "The aroused man has no conscience."
Thank you for opening up this discussion.
BTW - I made two comments on the previous post, just in case you don't normally go back and check...
Jay- thanks for stopping by and offering your imput. I'm happy to have opened this up: I'm glad people were so willing to share!
Amstaff- Oh that is different. But very detailed, and true! I'm going to use that one. Where did he get that from?
Steve- What are you "still confused about"? You have yet to verbalize that? Are you still marveling at women's ability to go on and on about the same topic? Or are you genuinely confused about something?
Steph - He made up the list. He covers it in his Song of Solomon conferences. I checked to see if there was one coming in your area, and it doesn't look like there is, but if you ever get a chance to go to one. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Run, do not walk. Everyone should hear them. Single, Married, whatever.
Really? Could you send me the link to his site? I would love, LOVE to go to one. (I'm thinking: visit to Texas around the same time one of his conferences passes through... lol)
C'mon down!!! He usually has 2 a year in Texas, I think. Eddo would know more about it.
http://www.thesongofsolomon.com/splash.asp?sid={C22E5F85-F101-4C5C-A905-DD4A4870F1B3}
I wanted to comment even though it's been thoroghly beaten. I didn't read all 54 comments, but I think there is always too much emphasis put on the action and not enough emphasis put on the intent.
What did you mean when you held hands? What were you trying to say?
A relationship without some form of physical intimacy (let's remember physical intimacy can be holding hands) can be construed as non-affectionate.
You have to first designate your intentions in the relationship. What level is this relationship supposed to be at? Friends only, more than friends.
Also the status of a relationship requires an understanding of intentions and those intentions imply explicitly boundaries.
Boundaries are nothing more than a statement of right and wrong, which -- is your beliefs. If you hold true to Christianity, then your focus should be on intent.
~Jef
Jef- thanks for adding your two cents...
I think you have a VERY good point. But that was the point I was beginning to make in some of my comments: Even IF someone is a Christian, sometimes they either pay no heed to REALITY, or they don't care, or they honestly don't know... there is a definite need for boundaries. So while intent is all well and good (and I DO believe that guys should know and openly state thier intent with a woman that they're spending a lot of time with - NEVER blur that line), we NEVER know who we're up against. Sometimes even the most *seemingly* well-meaning Christian can have a deep, well-hidden agenda.
And honestly Jef, some of this is primarily geared toward women: I'm more concerned for thier well-being and state of mind, than... well... let's just leave it there. I tend to still get a little fired up about this issue. Wounds not quite healed yet.
Thanks for jumping in!
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