Tuesday, September 27, 2005

What Do YOU Think?!?

So last night in class, as we were discussing the fall of Satan and his demons, my prof. proposed a "slightly" different theory about the time frame in which this actually happened. While the vast majority of us may think that this happened perhaps even before the heavens and the earth were even created, Mr. Professor Man seems to think that it happened right after Jesus was resurrected and raised up to heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. Huh?! His proof can be found in the book of Revelation.
Revelation 12:1-17
The Woman, Isreal
1A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.
The Red Dragon, Satan
3Then another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads were seven diadems. And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth, he might devour her child.
The Male Child, Christ
5And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
The Angel, Michael
7And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
"Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time."
13And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Now, as much as I would like to share my take on this, I would like yours first. Do you think that my professor's theory could very well shake up your theology enough to make you question when the fall of Satan actually did happen? Or do you think he's lost it?
Let's talk, people! Let me know what you think!

32 Comments:

Blogger Katie said...

Ooh, Stepanie I'm gonna have to reread this and come back. Interesting idea, my first instinct is to say he's off but I want to do some digging and look at his point of view. I'll be back (said of course in a very Ahnuld type way.)

9:26 AM  
Blogger Amstaff Mom said...

I had a hard time reading the font of the verses, but I don't believe that what he's saying is correct. I believe Job lived before Jesus, and if so, then how was Satan roaming to and fro all over the earth? He wasn't an angel at the time, because he wanting to cause Job harm. And what about the serpent in the Garden of Eden? Was it talking out of it's own volition? I personally don't think so.

My two cents anyways...

10:55 AM  
Blogger Katie said...

Ok I'm back, did just a bit of digging and I stand by the thought that Satan was already fallen and this was a pre-Creation event. We see that Satan is left to roam the earth throughout the Bible, it speaks of him coming into the presence of God as if he is not currently there, and it talks often of his removal from heaven/presence of God. The event spoken of in Revelation is in the middle of the Tribulation and the casting down of Satan is his irrevocable barring from heaven. Up until that point Satan could enter the presence of God (see Job) and converse with him. At this point in future time God will stop Satan from entering His presence as this text marks the beginning of the great battle between God and Satan and the final judgement upon the earth - so Satan is cast upon the earth for this same judgement.

So that's my take. Sorry, I don't agree with your proff. His point is worth looking into if just to make me more convinced of my thought process.

LOVE that you are talking about things like this in class. JEALOUS.

10:57 AM  
Blogger steve said...

he is a liar...

slap him. Teachers like that

11:04 AM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

Thanks for your take, ladies. We're going to get into further detail next week, but he did back up some of your arguments with scripture. I'll probably print all of this out and ask him to cite scriptural examples to further back his point. So to be continued on Tuesday.

Katie- I know. I can hardly believe I'm doing it. Just a couple of years ago, I would have been in the bars singing karaoke, drinking, and smoking. Now, a brand new woman, ladies and gents! Digging into the word of God, and absolutely loving it! No need for jealousy Katie: Maybe I'll just post "Theology Recap Tuesdays" from now on so we can discuss the things I learned the night before. Deal?

11:10 AM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

Okay Steve, so what's your take then?

11:12 AM  
Blogger Katie said...

Stephanie - I would LOVE recaps.

I really an a nerd.

11:20 AM  
Blogger Katie said...

Am a nerd. And yet I can't type today. Sad.

MmmBob

11:30 AM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

MmmmBob. That's great. lol I think that should be your salutation from now on...

vtukrq - Valentine's Day Turkeys quack?!?

11:38 AM  
Blogger steve said...

I am on the same wave as KT. Its a HUGE thought.

I have been looking at all this for the last hour and reading and never thought about the view of your prof. I see that there are quite a few that believe in this line of thinking. I agree with J COL that one must look at Joba nd the serpent as examples of satan already fallen.

I am still digging in here... Isiah 14 talks a lot about the fall of satan...

12:43 PM  
Blogger steve said...

my work day is shot... lol

12:45 PM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

Sorry Steve, but I'm glad you're participating. I thought you gave up on me :)

12:58 PM  
Blogger Katie said...

Stephanie - don't forget to tell us your take on it.

1:44 PM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

Well, since I took the day off of work yesterday, and have come back today to a whirlwind of paperwork and "catching up", I haven't had much time to dig as I would like. However, I marked my Bible at Revelation 12 with the question to be posed, "Couldn't this just be referring to the 7 years of tribulation- this then, being more of a figurative presentation of the events yet to be unfolded, rather than a literal interpretation of the fall of Satan?"

Keep in mind, I'm sure this would be the logical conclusion drawn by anyone who would read this passage of scripture, however, until I dig in deeper, it stays this elementary.

And Steve: My Prof. did argue Isaiah 14, the serpent in the garden, etc...

Another argument he presented was the verse in Hebrews 9:23 which talks about the heavens being cleansed by the sacrifice of Christ. He argues that that verse alone begs the question then, that up until the sacrifice of Christ, perhaps we can conclude that Satan could still be in the presence of God (ie: Job) and roam the earth (ie: the garden of eden) until the cleansing of heaven to which he was cast down and banned from Heaven from that point on....

So there's a bit more for you to chew on. (That verse in Hebrews really did make me wonder, though). I'll have to dig a bit deeper. I think my roomie and I will have a little fun with this tonight...

1:59 PM  
Blogger Amstaff Mom said...

I bought "Brian" a book on the four views of Revelation for his birthday a couple of months ago. It takes each chapter and breaks it into the four views, Pre-trib, Post-trib, etc. I'll have to look up this chapter tonight and see what each of the views have to say about this.

And I'll take the opportunity to practice my memory verse that I'm supposed to say tonight at Bible Study on your site. We have to say the topic, then the reference, the verse, and then the reference again. So here it goes...

Assurance of Salvation
1 John 5:11-12

"And this is the testimony:
God has given us eternal life
And this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has life
He who does not have the Son does not have life."

1 John 5:11-12.


uaelspki - You all speaky?
YEA!!!!

2:20 PM  
Blogger Katie said...

Ok Stephanie I have a few semantics questions. When your prof is mentioning the fall of Satan is he referring to his removal from the perfect angelic realm or his ultimate downfall. I see these as two distinct events. Pre-creation Satan tried to exalt himself above God (Isaiah text) this resulted in his removal from the angelic realm and with him went other angels who became "fallen" - i.e. out of the presence and glory of God in their own perfect angelic nature.

Then we have creation in which we see Satan, though not human or mortal and still angelic but imperfect/fallen angelic interact with man and set up dominion on the earth when sin enters it. We see his work in the lives of fallen men (again a being that was created perfect and then fell from that state when they tried to exalt themselves above God - eating of the tree of knowledge) while still being allowed in the presence of God, but with certain stipulations (Satan has to ask permission of God to intervene in Job's life and Jesus has power over him and his minions as seen in his many removals of demons from people during his ministry).

Then we see in the Revelation text that God casts Satan from his presence and confines him to the earthly realm (in the person of the Anti-Christ) where the final battle between Satan and Christ will occur on this fallen earth. After that Satan is bound for 1000 years and then final judgement and eternal banishment and condemnation to the lake of fire.

So I guess what I not getting is if your prof sees these as two distinct events - Satan falling from perfection upon his attempted exaltation above God and Satan's final removal from the presence of the Lord in the heavenly realm?

Am I the only one confused here?

2:21 PM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

No, I think you're not the only one confused, I do see your point. But I think he is making the distinction, only saying rather that in the "cleansing of heaven" (talked about in Hebrews) through the death of Christ, there could be the possibility that THAT is when Satan is ultimately banished from God's presence, "...and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus." (Rev. 12:17) And that verse in Revelation is talking about his roaming the earth NOW.

Does that clear things up at all? I know, I know... that presents a lot of questions, and as I'm trying to argue his point for him, I'm starting to cross my eyes a bit myself.

erwxdp - EARWAX DIP?! lol!!!!

2:30 PM  
Blogger Amstaff Mom said...

No, I'm confused to. I would think he would have to believe the latter, because otherwise it really doesn't make any sense to me. Revelation is tricky enough without making it even more complicated!!! :)

2:32 PM  
Blogger Katie said...

Ok the text in Hebrews is confusing me now. I see that as Christ cleansing the mark of sin upon the earth. Like in the OT when blood had to be shed and spread around the temple to cleanse the sin of the people and the temple of God because of that sin, Christ's death cleansed the people and the temple of God - heaven of man's sin. I don't get the connection he is making to Satan and heaven there, that seems to be a big reach to me.

2:39 PM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

Interesting. I am SO printing all of this out and waving it around in class next week. Well, AND I do a bible study with one of my classmates on Thursdays, and I know for sure that he stayed late to talk more about this with Mr. Prof. Man. So I'll get the scoop.

3:18 PM  
Blogger steve said...

When we talk of the FALL of Satan are we talking about the GEOGRAPHICAL fall from heaven??

hmmm hmmm>??? can we chew on that?? hmmm?? when was satan created??? hmmm?? hmm??

my head hurts...


and JCOL what bible study series are you doing?? do the workbooks have trees on the covers? I have all of those verses memorized...

3:23 PM  
Blogger Amstaff Mom said...

Jubal! Yes! "Pretty trees, pretty trees" (in my best mmmmmmBob Ross interpretation). It's the Navigators 2:7 study. I'm on Book One, Lesson 2.

Awesome! Isn't God Good!

And for further thought, when was "Satan" created or when was "Lucifer" created? Hmmmm? Hmmm?

Did y'all watch Cinderella growing up? "Luci-feee". I loved those little mice. Gus-Gus.

3:33 PM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

Steve, you're too funny. Good questions though. I think I have an answer or two, but I will get back to you on that at a later date. Thanks for digging with me today guys! I really enjoyed it!

And please... in the future... please don't hesitate to use us here at "Miss Stephanie's Musings" for all your theological needs! :D

3:40 PM  
Blogger Katie said...

Ok so was Satan created or did he just exist? Were angels created or did they just exist? Hmmm, Bible seems to be silent on that one.

My point exactly on the Fall - geographical or "spiritual (I guess)".

Ask the prof, I'm interested to know what he says.

This is fun, thanks Stephanie. I'm studying Genesis at BSF and we're about to get to the temptation of man, so it is interesting to think of Satan in that point and how that applies to this topic.

3:54 PM  
Blogger Amstaff Mom said...

I'm studying Genesis too in Wed's Bible study (I'm such the overachiever this semester!). Tomorrow night is the fall of man.

We'll have to compare notes.

myzow (miser?)

4:13 PM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

Katie: What's BSF? And keep us posted on what you find out. I'd be interested to know!

4:28 PM  
Blogger Katie said...

DEDUDE. I commented and stupid blogger ate it up.

BSF - Bible Study Fellowship. It is a non-denominational structured (i.e. intense) Bible Study that focuses on specific texts or groups of text for in-depth study. This year we are studying Genesis (last year was the Acts of the Apostles, the year before that was the Minor Prophets - between those two studies I think I've read and studied 3/4 of the bible in the last two years, next year is Romans - I am so excited). It's a great bible study becasue it is completely scriptural based (no outside resources are allowed) - makes you really dig into the Word. I need to post about the last two lessons becasue the were AWESOME.

9:25 AM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

I think you should! I would love to hear about what you're learning! Seriously, if I could make a career out of digging into the word, you know I would!

9:32 AM  
Blogger Amstaff Mom said...

This chapter was briefly discussed in last night's Bible Study. Here's my notes...

12:1 - the woman is Israel
12:3 - the sign is Satan
12:3 - the seven heads and seven crowns is a historic continium and represents the 7 great nations of history. The only one still to come is the rebuilding of the Roman Empire.
12:4 - The stars swept are the faithful of Israel. A 1/3 of them will be killed during the tribulation.
12:6 - The woman (Israel) is under God's protetction.

7:27 AM  
Blogger Amstaff Mom said...

I took alot of notes last night on Genesis Chapter 3, but the one specifically about Satan is verse 1, where previously in Genesis, God is referred to as "LORD God". When Satan speaks of him to Eve, he addresses him as "God" only, which means that he wasn't personalizing Him, the LORD God is no longer personal to Satan, and Satan isn't giving him proper respect.

3:24 The cherubim already exist to guard the gate, there is no mention of their recent creation, so angels were already in existence prior to the creation of the world.

And for other interesting info...

3:7 - is the first act of "religion" by mankind. They attempt to cover themselves and hide their shame.

3:9 - the first question by God to mankind.

3:15 - first mention of the gospel

3:16 - the command of authority begins between man and woman. Prior to this, it is understood and accepted.

3:21 - first death; first sacrifice

7:40 AM  
Blogger Stephanie said...

Wow Amstaff- thanks for sharing all of that! I just love how Revelation is such a deep book- there's so many different assertions you can make as you go through. I'm beginning to think I'm with you on this one, but I'm interested to see what my prof says on Monday to back up his "evidence".

8:43 AM  
Blogger Amstaff Mom said...

You're very welcome. I was so excited that he brought up that chapter, what were the chances that he would cover BOTH of them.

Too cool.

vrjuhne - virgin

9:28 AM  

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